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Rioters & Looters Prison Sentences!

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DavidP...

 

If you look carefully, I've not condoned these acts at all - I just try and understand where the anger comes from, and for you to merely dismiss these acts out of hand shows a complete disregard for the real world ! And I have a strong belief in real justice and dismiss collective punishment!

 

You also show your ignorance of 'government' in your statement that "The Government doesn't run our lives. You could make a case that they unduly influence but we're still free to make decisions within a pretty broad range"...well I haven't been in Oz for a while, but here in the UK the government runs our lives right down to the micro level...

 

And it's interesting that you bring up 'anarchy'....like the vast majority you don't understand the meaning of the word, and have been sucked in by the bastardisation of that word by vested 'authorities'...

 

In case you didn't see this that has been posted before, the following may educate you a little... :Winky:

 

 

Anarchy

 

Anarchy is not disorder. Anarchy is a state that is arrived at through the philosophy of anarchism. Mutual aid. Without rulers. Living together. Working things out together.

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Thank you for your critique Sparks. I don't believe I said anarchy was a bad thing. Just that you believe its good thing which is an assumption but reasonable.

 

One of the biggest issues I have with your arguments is that you appear to believe no-one who has properly thought through the issues could possible disagree with you. That's a very arrogant thing to do and likely to cause you to misjudge people and the value of their arguments.

 

I absolutely agree there is no point pontificating about 'the world going to hell in a hand basket' without trying to understand why. I just don't agree with the way you interpret things, or your solutions. Actually, I would be interested in what your solution would be. Not in broad ideological terms but specifics. What would society be like in the 'Sparks Utopia'? What rights would people have? How would you ensure everyone was free to exercise their rights?

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Thank you for your critique Sparks. I don't believe I said anarchy was a bad thing. Just that you believe its good thing which is an assumption but reasonable.

I pointed out that you have misconstrued the true meaning of anarchy...

 

One of the biggest issues I have with your arguments is that you appear to believe no-one who has properly thought through the issues could possible disagree with you. That's a very arrogant thing to do and likely to cause you to misjudge people and the value of their arguments.

Again misconstrued...I comment on what has been posted.

 

 

I absolutely agree there is no point pontificating about 'the world going to hell in a hand basket' without trying to understand why. I just don't agree with the way you interpret things, or your solutions. Actually, I would be interested in what your solution would be. Not in broad ideological terms but specifics. What would society be like in the 'Sparks Utopia'? What rights would people have? How would you ensure everyone was free to exercise their rights?

You don't agree with my 'solutions', and yet you ask what my solution would be?...please make up your mind !

 

There is no 'Sparks Utopia' because no such thing could ever exist. You can build what you believe is the 'perfect life', but unless you interact with others meaningfully it's pointless - because humans are 'herd animals'....However 'authority' is scared of autonomous communities!

 

The nearest model for me is the original kibbutzim - before it was inevitably corrupted by capitalism!

 

It's easy to look for the specifics of that movement.... :Winky:

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This idea of 'political intrusion' is starting to tear apart the very fabric of the UK justice system....

 

Riot justice is too tough, says chief prosecutor

 

If the 'Top Dog' speaks out whilst still in office, then something has gone seriously wrong...

 

In an interview with The Daily Telegraph, Keir Starmer says those convicted of involvement in the riots should not be seen as a “separate category”, as some judges have argued.

 

Instead, he says, the Crown Prosecution Service and other legal authorities “need to keep our feet on the ground” and “remind ourselves that we are dealing with ordinary criminal cases”.

 

And no doubt he'll soon be sacked then... :Winky:

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Hi Sparks. To go back to your comment on my comment, I pointed out that I had not miscontrued the meaning of 'Anarchy' and in fact made no comment at all about the meaning of the word. Your reiteration that I had miscontrued was a bit redundant.

 

My comment about your attitude to other people is my opinion not a misinterpretation. And you don't simply comment on what other people say. You argue against their opinions but without accepting their opinion has any weight or even an attempt to understand what their opinons are based on, pretty much as you say we do about the activities of the rioters.

 

My interest in what your Utopia might look like is because I am interested in whether you have any thoughts at all on what the ideal world might look like. And how you might create it and manage it. You seem to have plenty of thoughts on what's wrong with the world.

 

Generally your comments demonstrate exactly what I mean.

 

But as I said before, its good to be reminded the world is made up of all sorts.

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That reply is really quite funny, as not only have you ignored my post regarding 'spark's utopia' (your description not mine), but you are doing exactly what you accuse me of...

 

Still, I guess it's quite difficult wording a meaningful reply when someone gives a straight answer to a muddled question.... :Winky:

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I agree with David P's point.

 

It's time you pointed that deadly keyboard at yourself and told us of your ideologies.

 

Not links that no one is going to read - but your basic workable ideal society.

 

You are as always ready to tell eveyone that they speak rubbish and play the 'voice in the wilderness' card

 

You are either a forum troll and just like winding people up - or you have substance.

 

Over to you.

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I agree with David P's point.

 

It's time you pointed that deadly keyboard at yourself and told us of your ideologies.

 

Not links that no one is going to read - but your basic workable ideal society.

 

You are as always ready to tell eveyone that they speak rubbish and play the 'voice in the wilderness' card

 

You are either a forum troll and just like winding people up - or you have substance.

 

Over to you.

 

Oh I have substance....so maybe the question should be, 'can you read'?

 

 

The nearest model for me is the original kibbutzim

 

Now which bit of that 'basic workable society' (I've omitted your word 'ideal', because there is no such thing) don't you understand?

 

ps. links are helpful to an argument, so I'm sorry if they often challenge your POV even if you can't be bothered to read/understand them...

 

And isn't it ionic that those who usually add very little inevitably end up reaching for the 'troll word' time and again.... :Winky:

 

pps. what do you think an appropriate sentence should be for the MP accused today of nicking £60k (should she be found guilty), when compared with 4 months for nicking £3.50 worth of water?

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Bah. (or should that be Baa)

It's 'Baah' actually, as I pointed out to another person here previously who also signed up to the sheep mentality... :Winky:

But just like I've said to you several times before - you have nothing to add to the conversation...

 

And why is it that you don't come up with solutions of your own, and just Diss those who bother to 'think outside of the box'?

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I am enjoying this. And you will note I hope that I haven't once needed to make any derogatory comments about anyone?? And you can be sure I pay no attention to those aimed at me!

 

You said a couple of comments back that I had ignored your link to the Kibbutzim article. I did that because you included the comment that the ideal had been corrupted by Capitalism. I didn't see the value on commenting on something that was already known to be a non-starter. Capitalism has always been a factor and always will be. Its the nature of people.

 

Then you made some sort of a denigrating comment (which is a sure sign of lack of cogent argument).

 

Links to someone else's opinion don't in themselves constitute an opinion! And people who disagree with you aren't necessarily thinking 'inside the box'! Maybe they are in a completely different box than the one you're thinking outside of? Maybe these people know things that you don't? Maybe their minds work in ways you can't understand (and I don't mean from the perspective of intelligence)?

 

I heard a discussion about the amount of information a person takes in through all their senses, and how what we hear, see, smell (how many senses are there again??) is mentally filtered to process that raw data into information. And the filters are built up over a lifetime of experiences and are unique to the individual. There is always more than one valid opinion on social issues but maybe for some people their filters don't let them see that.

 

My ideal world would be a benevolent dictatorship! I think Brunei is something like what I mean. Not too much authority vested in the people but Government truly working on their behalf. I don't think this model would scale well though!

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I am enjoying this.

So am I...

 

However, I must pull you up on a point you made earlier... namely when you said "I don't believe I said anarchy was a bad thing".

 

Now unless you have had a recent epiphany, you are as I said earlier ignorant of the true meaning of anarchy...

 

I understand there are two or more perspectives on every situation that might arise but you consistently seem to support the forces of anarchy and chaos.

 

I think we are sliding into anarchy because society refuses to protect itself

 

The majority must be protected from them using any means, because if it isn't you get 'anarchy'!

 

Absolute freedom for all means anarchy which is dead scary!

Therefore I find your recent remarks contradictory to your 'historic posts'...

 

'Anarchy' is only scary if you believe in authority's errant definition of it - a trait you have displayed admirably... :Winky:

 

You said a couple of comments back that I had ignored your link to the Kibbutzim article. I did that because you included the comment that the ideal had been corrupted by Capitalism. I didn't see the value on commenting on something that was already known to be a non-starter. Capitalism has always been a factor and always will be. Its the nature of people.

Logically since it grew out of a belief, It wasn't a non-starter - it was snuffed out by capitalism because it was a threat....And capitalism isn't the true nature of people at all - it's drummed into our heads by 'vested interests'!

 

Links to someone else's opinion don't in themselves constitute an opinion! And people who disagree with you aren't necessarily thinking 'inside the box'!

Links mean that someone who might not have seen a different opinion are able to do so - and therefore 'thinking inside the box' can sometimes be construed by some as 'sticking your head up your ar*e'...lol

 

My ideal world would be a benevolent dictatorship! I think Brunei is something like what I mean. Not too much authority vested in the people but Government truly working on their behalf. I don't think this model would scale well though!

Ah, the benevolent dictatorship argument....

 

So tell me - who decides on who that 'benevolent dictator' is then?....Another Gaddafi in the making?

 

And since you've mentioned Brunei, I suggest you check out the country inequality league - and its got nothing to do with 'scaling' at all !

 

ps. I haven't put a link in, because according to you it's only an opinion and therefore not valid.... :Winky:

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My mistake. I thought your comment was on my current comment not my historical comments! I do not believe anarchy and chaos are positive environments for humanity (as my previous comments show) but I understand what it means (sort of)!

 

If you believe (as I do) that all people do all things with selfish motives (yes, including Mother Theresa), then it follows that all people are going to work for what is best for them (like voting Labor because they might increase the dole, or Tory because they might decrease taxes!). Which leads to Capitalism (very broadly). People like to get value for their individual competitive advantages. In my opinion a 100% socialist environment will only succeed in the short term, on a small scale and perhaps in a stressful environment where there is a common threat.

 

And I reckon whatever sort of governance is in place there will be people suffering inequality. I don't believe you can have a society where everyone is treated equally on all occasions. Its a result of the 'majority rules' concept. and the way it ought to be in my opinion.

 

On the subject of leaders and how they're elected, I believe Hitler came to power in a democracy? I haven't researched that but I think he was! In my opinion, there are no absolute guarantees in life. In the final analysis we are all probably mostly dependent on our choice of the company we keep!! Our own niche in whatever society we're part of.

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Unfortunately you continue to link 'anarchy' with 'chaos', so your historical and present comments are consistent.

 

I also have a consistent viewpoint... :Winky:

 

Anarchy is not chaos, but because 'authority' is scared of people doing their own thing they (like you) link the two together...

 

And no, I don't think ALL people do ALL things with 'selfish motives'. I certainly don't, otherwise I could have been quite rich by now!...I believe you are confusing the majority with the ruling minority (financially) who manipulate and subjugate populations through that capitalism.

 

And of course a 100% 'socialist enviroment' doesn't work - but then anarchy isn't a 100% 'socialist enviroment'!

 

I note you continually talk in absolutes (100%, all, etc), as if a system that doesn't achieve this is a failure. I'm not preaching a 'utopia' (your word), just a fairer system which will inevitably have it's faults. But one that is better than we have now!

 

Unfortunately the vested interests don't want the masses to have a fair system, so the only way to gain it is what I have been saying for years - short term uprising!

 

So to suggest an anarchic system is based on chaos is like saying that imposing a so-called democratic system is based on the warfare required to change the existing one!

 

The reason I admire the original Kibbutz movement is that it does have at it's roots a socialist agenda, but there were no permanent 'leaders'. Obviously cetain decisions need to be made in any community, but the decision makers were routinely changed in order to get the widest range of input - but most sensible decisions were left to individuals! So that is my idea of 'anarchy' in the real world.

 

 

 

Oh, and as regards Hitler...He gained power with a minority of votes, but through violence and graft gained the chancellorship and then instituted the 'enabling act'....this allowed him to gain complete control of Germany, and history tells us the rest...

 

Of course it couldn't happen now could it?...well I suggest looking into the UK 'legislative and regulatory reform act 2006'. This was an 'enabling act' in everything but name, but luckily certain vital parts were defeated. It will of course be tried again, and given a more favourable political climate will be passed!

 

The bill in it's original form would allow the government to "rewrite almost any Act and, in some cases, enact new laws that at present only Parliament can make".

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Now that the dust has settled, and MP's have stopped their hysteria it appears a bit of rationality has resumed..

Facebook riot youth spared custodial sentence

 

Johnny Melfah, who was arrested on August 9 after an anonymous call from a concerned member of the public, was told his postings had fuelled the "self-feeding horror" of last month's disorder.

But magistrates sitting at Worcester Youth Court decided not to impose a custodial sentence, instead ordering the apprentice brick-layer to perform 80 hours of unpaid work and adhere to a three-month curfew.

Passing sentence on Melfah, chairman of the bench Paul Vaughan told the teenager: "I think it bears repeating that the case we have been hearing today is set against the background of some of the worst civil disorder we have experienced in a lifetime.

"For people of my generation, the whole thing unfolding on television and on the internet was terrifying and quite terrible."

Although Melfah pleaded guilty at a previous hearing to encouraging others to commit offences, magistrates heard there was no evidence that his actions led directly to any riot-related offences.

 

And yet a similar incident which also led to no 'riot-related offences' got others 4 years in jail....

 

Like it or not, we have political prisoners in the UK !

 

And what about that 'tough action' on gangs?...

 

It seems Camoron and his hired thugs have just made things worse....

 

Influx of prisoners after riots 'fuelling gang culture in jails'

 

 

An influx of more than 1,000 prisoners in the immediate aftermath of the riots that hit England last month has fuelled gang culture in prisons and led to serious incidents, the chief inspector of prisons said yesterdayon Wednesday.

In his first annual report, Nick Hardwick said the decision to remand more than 65% of riot defendants in custody had already resulted in incidents at Feltham young offenders' institute and Brixton prison in London, and "significant numbers" of people had been put on suicide watch.

Hardwick said that although the prison service had coped with the influx of riot-related prisoners, there had been serious tensions involving existing prisoners who had been moved to other prisons to make way for the new inmates. New gangs were forming, particularly where London-based inmates were being moved in large groups to prisons around the country.

 

:Hmm:

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